Oral History Interview with Dr. Margaret Dietrich

Title

Oral History Interview with Dr. Margaret Dietrich

Interviewee

Dr. Margaret Dietrich

Interviewer

Ella Dietrich

Description

Dr. Margaret Dietrich of Shorewood, Wisconsin was interviewed by Ella Dietrich, a Sewanee student, on November 26th, 2023 in person. While their conversation was primarily on the Black Lives Matter Movement, other topics included racial disparities in health care and household inequality. We hope that this conversation will assist scholars with a further understanding of race in the United States during the early twenty-first century. Please click on the link to see the full interview.

Transcript

00:02 ELLA: This is Ella Dietrich from Sewanee, the University of the South. It is 10:00 AM on Tuesday, November 28th. I am here with

00:12 MAGGIE: Maggie Dietrich.

00:15 ELLA: And you are from?

00:18 MAGGIE: Where was I born?

00:19 ELLA: Yes.

00:20 MAGGIE: Rockford, Illinois, USA.

00:23 ELLA: Thank you Maggie for being here. You're welcome. So you spoke of Rockford, Illinois. Where around is that located? If you could give some context.

00:33 MAGGIE: Sure. That is North central Illinois. It's about 90 minutes from Chicago.

00:38 ELLA: Okay. And have you lived in the Midwest your whole life?

00:43 MAGGIE: Just for most of my life, yep. Until I was 20, say 30. My first 30 years were in the Midwest and then we lived in DC for three years and then we moved back to the Midwest.

01:01 ELLA: And I'm guessing you went to college here?

01:04 MAGGIE: I went to college in Wheaton, Illinois, in the Midwest.

01:07 ELLA: And is that a liberal arts school?

01:09 MAGGIE: That is a liberal arts

01:10 ELLA: School. Interesting.s

01:12 MAGGIE: Also it' called the Harvard of the Christian Schools of Evangelical schools.

01:21 ELLA: Oh. Very fancy. Where you currently live different from where you were raised?

01:28 MAGGIE: Rockford was a smaller town similar to Milwaukee in that it's a rust belt city with high division racially and economically and major infrastructure issues with loss of jobs due to manufacturing.

01:53 ELLA: Okay. And what manufacturing would that be?

01:57 MAGGIE: I actually don't know for sure. Rockford had automotive and other kinds of, I'm not sure exactly here. I don't know what other kind of,

02:16 ELLA: That's okay. So you said you live in Milwaukee today?

02:24 MAGGIE: Yeah.

02:25 ELLA: Okay. Where did you find community as a child?

02:30 MAGGIE: So I was pretty tight with our neighbors. We lived in a kind of new development, new residential development, and so all the neighbors moved in at the same time and there were a lot of kids and my school was about a mile away from our home, so I spent a lot of time in the neighborhood for most of my growing up. We lived in a cul-de-sac and it was gravel, but we would tear it up in the cul-de-sac a lot. And also we went to church. I think that was probably, those are the biggest things, biggest places that we have community.

03:21 ELLA: And you still go to church today?

03:23 MAGGIE: I still do, but it's a lot different. I went to a Baptist church growing up. Now I go to an Episcopal church a lot different

03:34 ELLA: Because you are now married to?

03:37 MAGGIE: Because now I'm married to a pastor, but it was the church I grew up in was very, it was evangelical and fundamentalist.
03:52 It wasn't full fundamentalist. It was pretty close.

03:56 ELLA: Did you have any difficulty with that growing up?

04:00 MAGGIE: The main difficulty I had was that you couldn't question anything. You couldn't voice any wondering or non-belief wasn't really tolerated. And there were a lot of rules, expectations. Also women's roles were really defined and limited.

04:27 ELLA: And I'm guessing your mother was very in that church and devoted?

04:34 MAGGIE: She was fine with it. I think she didn't want to be a leader or didn't want to be a deacon. I don't think so. It worked for her.

04:44 ELLA: And has she gotten out of that church? Is she now in different

04:50 MAGGIE: She now she goes to a Covenant church. Evangelical Covenant church, which is definitely is more open with female roles, but still evangelical and somewhat conservative.

05:12 ELLA: And the college you went to, Wheaton College was a little bit more evangelical?

05:15 MAGGIE: It was definitely evangelical. It was non-denominational, evangelical.

05:22 ELLA: Okay. Where do you find community today?

05:28 MAGGIE: That's a good question. It's a little bit of a struggle, I think because my life stage now has been focused on child rearing and family life. So a lot of the community revolved around a activities around the kids

05:55 ELLA: And maybe parents and

05:57 MAGGIE: Parents of the kids and school-based stuff with similar life stages. Also, I feel community. So I think the people I feel most in community with have kids are the ages of our kids. And also some neighbors a little bit, but not as much as I'd like it to be

06:26 ELLA: Because they have maybe younger kids and aren't as, have not gone through the same life stages.

06:31 MAGGIE: Exactly. And then I am closer to people at work than I ever have been, but that's challenging. It's kind a challenging place for community, all kind of stressed out at work, but I do feel supported at work in general.

06:50 ELLA: Do you find any community at the church even though,

06:54 MAGGIE: Yeah, I do feel like people at church have my back, but I feel like a little bit, it's like they got Seth's back, they got the pastor's back and we're, but I do have genuine regard for a lot of people at church and people I could call on if I needed.

07:21 ELLA: So we talked a little bit about what you do for work, but if you could just specifically outline your occupation and your journey to this role.

07:33 MAGGIE: Yes. So I am a pediatric physical therapist. I work in an agency that is in the intercity of Milwaukee in the center of the city. And our funding comes from a federal program. The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act in particular part C of that federal law. And so our agency is a contract for four part C. And so I do home visits for early intervention from kids from birth to three years old and I have been in, that's been really my only professional role I've had.

08:33 ELLA: Did you know that you were going to venture into this role when you were in college?

08:39 MAGGIE: Yes. So when I was a senior in high school, my dad suggested or made me shadow a physical therapist briefly. So I had exposure to that world in high school and I knew that that was going to be a good fit for me. And so I started college with the intention of going on to a physical therapy graduate school program and I majored in biology in college. That helped me get all the prerequisites I needed. But I branched out a little bit while I was in college and did some other things and then needed to take additional prerequisites after I graduated from college.

09:27 ELLA: And then you went on to go to graduate

09:29 MAGGIE: School and then I had two years off, I think. Wait, no, I just had one year off really. I seemed more than that must've been two years, two years off after I graduated I had to take prerequisites and I was also working, which was great. I got good experience in those two years. Then I went to graduate school for physical therapy and master's program, and then I worked, took some time off for raising children. I took three years off and then I went back to work and then I went back to school to get my doctorate in physical therapy eventually.

10:20 ELLA: You're a pretty bad - A

10:22 MAGGIE: Pretty bad A now I work full-time back into pediatric PT.

10:29 ELLA: And it is, I know because I'm your daughter, but you've gone through teaching at graduate school and working in the maternal health clinic. And so now your sole role is home visits?

10:43 MAGGIE: Yep. Okay. Yeah, so I'm not working in university settings anymore, but I'm using all the skill and exposure that I have within there, which was more of a public health emphasis in maternal and child health.

11:07 ELLA: And you still have pretty specific interest in that?

11:10 MAGGIE: I do.

11:10 ELLA: And because of working in a bigger city, has that been helpful?

11:14 MAGGIE: Yes. It's because Milwaukee has huge health disparities depending on where you live and what ethnic racial background you have, especially around, and I specifically know more about babies who are born prematurely. That's kind of where I have my little niche in that world.

11:43 ELLA: And most of the babies that you are taking care of, premature? Or preterm birth?

11:50 MAGGIE: Yes. They either, they all have a delay or atypical development and probably half of 'em had a premature birth and then another half have a diagnosis already down-syndrome or something like other neurodegenerative type diagnoses.

12:18 ELLA: Okay. Sounds like you're doing a lot of good work in the world. You talked a little bit about your dad and his influence on your career, but is there a specific person that you can name that has inspired you, and not necessarily your career, but just your life trajectory?

12:42 MAGGIE: I think that's a good question. I think that, yeah, my dad was really practical in getting me aligned with a career that would fit my skills or my proclivities towards wanting to help other people. But as far as career growth was probably the person that was my mentor at University of Wisconsin-Madison, Vicky. And she really exposed me to a broader perspective in physical therapy, which encompasses public health, social justice, and the social determinants of health and health equity, that kind of stuff. And I also had, when I was in college, I spent time in, I spent six months in Peru, and that was also really instrumental in my kind of combo of physical therapy with social justice.

13:59 ELLA: How did specifically Peru help in your journey? Finding a journey in social justice?

14:06 MAGGIE: I think that it was a very poor area and you could just see the effects of poverty and poor government leadership kind of stuff on the people, and it just exposed me to how a different place treats their people with disabilities.

14:42 ELLA: Yeah. I mean, you talked obviously about Peru, but have you experienced any other international cultures in your life?

14:53 MAGGIE: Not really. I mean, that was the most, and then being in Milwaukee now, I mean, I work with people who were born all over the world. Yeah.

15:03 ELLA: And you've used, you did a little bit of Spanish in college? Yes. You're pretty not fluent, but

15:11 MAGGIE: Yeah, I have some good conversational skills, not fluent, but yes. So I have families from South America, central America, Puerto Rico, and also East Asia and Pacific Islanders. Okay. Yeah.

15:43 ELLA: More specifically, getting into the Black Lives Matter interview portion. Generally, how do you receive the news? Maybe through an app on your phone, a physical copy with the newspaper on tv?

16:03 MAGGIE: I was getting the online local newspaper and the paper newspaper, but that stopped a while ago. I don't know exactly when I stopped getting that. It's probably before Black Lives Matter. So mostly through the internet, through news outlets on the internet and occasionally Facebook links.

16:28 ELLA: Are those sent to you or are you just

16:30 MAGGIE: Exposed to them? Yeah, in my feed. Yeah.

16:35 ELLA: What specific news outlets are you looking at?

16:38 MAGGIE: I usually look at, well, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, New York Times, and The Atlantic.

16:46 ELLA: Okay.

16:48 MAGGIE: We also used to get the Times Magazine a little bit from that, but not anymore.

16:53 ELLA: We just get the Atlantic now.

16:56 MAGGIE: New York Times, Washington Post. And what's the other? Wall Street Journal

17:02 ELLA: And the Christian Century.

17:04 MAGGIE: The Christian Century.

17:07 ELLA: What is your experience with social media?

17:10 MAGGIE: I have Facebook and Instagram. I got on Facebook in 2007 and Instagram probably when you were in sixth grade.

17:26 ELLA: And then get with the trends,

17:27 MAGGIE: I got in mood with the trends, and now I still am on both of those, but I spend way more time on Instagram than Facebook, and I'm slightly addicted to Instagram reels. It's hard to stop.

17:42 ELLA: Is there any news that comes with that, maybe posts that you see in the stuff?

17:49 MAGGIE: Rarely. I rarely get stuff now on my social media. If it was, I kind of blocking it out. So I really only get my news right now from New York Times and Apple News.

18:09 ELLA: That's weird because when I go on my Instagram, unless I'm consciously thinking about not wanting to see news, I almost always see something about the news

18:20 MAGGIE: Really on Instagram?

18:21 ELLA: From people that are reposting stuff like Palestine, Gaza stuff all over.

18:28 MAGGIE: I only get a teensy bit of that,

18:30 ELLA: But that's on reels or is the people

18:32 MAGGIE: Are posting Keep my people that I would follow. I really only follow whatever, like 50 people, but I think that I've slowly erased all of that. If someone is only posting political stuff, I am not following them just once in a while when it's something really meaningful to somebody. When Raiya posted about Israel, I looked at that, what she was supposed to, but she's kind of stopped now.

19:05 ELLA: Yeah. How did you first encounter the Black Lives Matter movement?

19:13 MAGGIE: That's a good question. Well, because we were home because of COVID think we were probably really in tune to the news more so probably, I don't remember exactly how I was getting all the news right then, but I wish I remembered exactly how it went down, how I found out about it, but I'm sure it was just internet reading. I never watched the video of George Floyd, but I read lots of articles about it, and we were talking about it at my work too, a little bit, which we hadn't been talking about racial, especially around policing. We had racial issues in policing. We were not talking about that before,

20:17 ELLA: But it kind of brought up some discussion. Yeah. Do you think that you're thinking that your first encounter was posted with George Floyd or just right around it?

20:30 MAGGIE: Well, I had been exposed to issue. I had been aware of racial profiling in, oh wait, I messed this up.
20:55 Cancel, cancel,
20:55 Cancel. Okay. Hold on. Okay.
21:03 Okay.
21:05 I mean, I had been aware of racial profiling and issues in racial justice for, I think my awareness was starting in 20- well soon after we moved here. We moved here in 2007 and we started learning about, well, I was learning a lot about infant mortality differences depending on their zip code. And then that led me to learning about redlining, which led me to be learning about the systemic racism in Milwaukee, and then kind of how it was institutionalized early on.

22:04 ELLA: Institutionalized by whom?

22:06 MAGGIE: Like housing, neighborhood stuff, just location geographically, and then how concentrated poverty got to be so strong in Milwaukee. And

22:21 ELLA: Is that pretty apparent

22:22 MAGGIE: Today? It still is, yeah. So one of the zip codes in Milwaukee 5 3 2 0 3, is that what it is, has the highest infant mortality rates, if not the highest one of up there in the country, and it's very comparable to the third world countries.

22:46 ELLA: I think that I've seen a little bit of that today and seen a lot of it in the news.

22:52 MAGGIE: And so I started understanding more about what was causing those issues probably in the early 2010s. But as far as having the mainstream ability to talk about racial profiling by police, that didn't happen until George Floyd and then just talking about microaggressions, I didn't really talk a lot about that previously. I felt more like I couldn't talk about it before that with most people. Yeah.

23:52 ELLA: Do you think that there's microaggressions that happen in your work because you do live maybe in that inner city area compared to Shorewood?

24:02 MAGGIE: Well, probably more microaggressions occur in Shorewood, but there are staff members at my work that have experienced microaggressions and just poor awareness by their coworkers, people of color that work at, in my job, my employment is probably 60% white, maybe more than that, but all the leadership has been white women, and now it's getting more diversified. So in 2020, our agency established a new diversity equity inclusion committee, and I've been on that since then. And they hired a new DEI manager to kind of help with some of that stuff that goes on in the agency where people don't always feel included. And then also just diversifying the workforce. We work with primarily, I don't know what the percentage is. It's pretty high black and brown, and our clients are, but we are almost all white as home visitors.

25:34 ELLA: I think that that was a pretty global thing. But getting DEI installed in most institutions, even just the federal DEI stuff that started around George Floyd, because people realized we have problems and they've never been addressed.

25:52 MAGGIE: The societal pressure got more demanding of it.
25:57 But my workplace definitely shifted in 2020 towards cracking open. All those issues around racial equity. And our DEI manager left recently, so that's been upsetting, but that's also part of a trend, I think, too, is all these companies put in DEI people and then they've gotten burned out or people are not investing in them or whatever. But we have a new HR director who's black. His title is called the Vice President of People and Cultures. So he's, I don't really know if you'd call it managing over some of the issues around employment, diversifying the workforce. I mean, it's not like his job only, but I think he's kind of keeping track of it. w

27:09 ELLA: Ho new is he?

27:10 MAGGIE: He just started a month ago. Oh, okay.

27:12 ELLA: But you said that the other person or that DEI committee was kind of fizzling out?

27:17 MAGGIE: Yep, totally. Well, it hasn't totally fizzled out is really lost steam now. And personally, I've lost some steam in it too.

27:29 ELLA: Has there been any reason for that?

27:32 MAGGIE: I think it was fighting against this, fighting against ignorance around racial issues was really, it was invigorating. And now, I don't know. There's still a lot of issues, but the awareness is way higher, but I don't think we've necessarily been more effective. So it's kind of slow moving a little bit. I don't know what it is.

28:09 ELLA: Do you think that that's kind of getting, I mean, post covid getting back to normal life, everyone's got their own things

28:18 MAGGIE: Kind? I think so, yeah. Professionally, I've moved towards some other kinds of practices, which include racial inequities are included in what I do, but it's not the main thing I do. So I think these practices are good. The infant mental health stuff and trauma-informed care, I think are all very parallel to social justice issues.
28:51 But they're not all entangled together or is it?
29:00 Well, it's not entangled together. It's just not targeting a specific racial group, I guess, or I don't

29:06 ELLA: Know. Yeah, no, that makes sense.

29:08 MAGGIE: I don't know. Yeah,

29:09 ELLA: It just got a little bit too broad and there wasn't anything to pinpoint on it, maybe.

29:14 MAGGIE: Yeah. Yeah. It's broad, but I think it's good for everybody. Yeah.

29:18 ELLA: Yeah. Getting back to the Black Lives Matter movement. Yes. Do you have an opinion of the movement itself, the organization?

29:28 MAGGIE: I don't really know a lot about the organization of it, but..
29:32 I think it was incredibly good awareness. I had discussions with my parents for the first time ever around racial inequality, and I heard a lot of people tell their stories of how they grew up, and so that was really powerful in the ability to discuss issues across political divide. My parents are very, "you pull yourself up by your bootstraps" kind of mentality. You're in charge of your own, not like these racial inequities are holding you back. And I think that was always hard to talk about with them, but I was able to, after George Floyd,

30:38 ELLA: Were they receptive?

30:39 MAGGIE: So yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Not defensive. Not defensive, just kind of with humility. I just really experienced people talking with more humility of, I didn't know any better. I didn't know this was happening, but now it's kind of like the awareness is out there, but what to do about it is more divisive again. So I think it's frustrating, especially because dealing with socioeconomic poverty and racial issues. So I mean, they're very similar, but awareness is not really fixing it. Like economic policies and radical shifting of housing jobs. I think that's what's going to really mattered to people. And I don't know that Black Lives matter about it in a way in which the economic health of the area is benefiting. I don't think shaming white people that only go so far.

32:15 ELLA: Then I talked about that a little bit, where it creates a political divide, and if people are just using it as a device for, they just use it against people. They're like, "if you are for Black Lives Matter.. this is what you stand for," when really it doesn't, I mean, I don't think it was intended to be like that, but it definitely turned into a,

32:38 MAGGIE: Yeah, it's kind of virtual signaling. So I guess I don't really hear about Black Lives Matter all that much now as a movement. I hear more pro-black stuff and just, which I think is the way forward is, I mean, this is a dumb example, but there's just so many more black characters in media, positive black culture and books and games and toys for kids. And that's been a dramatic shift. I mean, not even that long ago, there was just not a lot of Black dolls, for example. So wait, what am I trying to say? So that's been lasting impact. That's had a lasting impact, but actual quality of life for people of color in the city, I don't think it's gotten any better.

34:03 ELLA: Yeah. You talked a little bit about creating conversation and discussion during, to people you hadn't really talked to before, but what was your community's reaction to the Black Lives Matter movement?

34:15 MAGGIE: I think it was a little bit scary at church because we didn't know how people would really react because it was still a little bit political, and that can be really tricky at church. I feel like in Shorewood, it was like, I mean, people are just really open to talking about it and no issues of wondering how people would react. And my work, it's been mostly positive, a little bit of backlash, I'd say, especially around middle class, poor white people, I think, because that's a little bit tricky, I'd say. But in general, I think we've kind of moved past this idea that you can elevate a group because of the history, and they might need specialized attention for certain things. It's okay that we can treat people a little differently, I mean, based on what they might need of past issues. Yeah,

35:37 ELLA: That's a great way putting it.

35:38 MAGGIE: Yes.

35:39 ELLA: What generation do you think was the most affected by Black Lives Matter?

35:46 MAGGIE: I really think it was the older generation.

35:49 ELLA: Why do you think that?

35:50 MAGGIE: Because I think I generation, I don't know what the generation above me is called Boomers.

36:04 ELLA: Yeah, I think that was Boomers.

36:05 MAGGIE: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was her own boomers.

36:12 ELLA: For me, it was my generation, just because I lived through it and I was on social media so much. But why boomers?

36:22 MAGGIE: I think radical shift in perspective and understanding was bigger than your generation, because you didn't really have, I mean, wasn't necessarily a shock for you that this was happening. Maybe a shock that it still was happening, but I think a lot of boomers really didn't believe it was happening.

36:56 ELLA: I just think in our experience with this class, we've talked a lot about how maybe older people were not as receptive because, well, number one, white older people, a lot of them did not take it as real, or they were convinced that the media was, I mean, I'm not blaming your parents, but I was with them when they would watch the Fox News on blast and there would be very biased things coming out at them. And then I think a lot of people of color that have lived through maybe more of a Black Power movement have seen these movements fizzle out. And so maybe they didn't take it at full value, but I dunno, I do see where you're coming, where they did not even think about that happening. Police brutality and all that. Okay. How has the Black Lives Matter movement impacted your life? And this could also be the way that you talk to your family and friends, or how you interact with people of other races.

38:09 MAGGIE: Yeah, I think just in general? It makes me more empathetic towards people who have really different lives than I do. And I mean, because I do home visits, I had a lot of empathy, but sometimes it's actually, which is weird. It's actually when there are people that are a lot different than me that are in sort of my normal space of this area, Northshore in schools, your classmates, or going to Target or the grocery store. When there's a group of people that I just will assume don't live in Shorewood, but come into Shorewood to shop or whatever, because this is an affluent area, and sometimes culturally they act a little different in my ability to check myself has gotten a lot better with it, versus when I go into the city, I don't have as much judgment. But when people come into this area, I have more judgment, more bias, and which is really something to work on anyway, I think that I've become more empathetic. I'll just say that with that.

39:54 ELLA: I think that every Shorewood citizen needs to work on that. It's important that you're recognizing it now. How do you think that Black Lives Matter movement has succeeded? You said a little bit about creating discussion...

40:13 MAGGIE: I mean, I think with people that are making decisions around police brutality and incarceration, I think the awareness has been there, but there's been more pressure on them. And I think that probably has been a benefit here. Maybe not in places like Portland, which is kind of backfired. But I think just the realization that crime is so tied to social concerns, lack of poor education, lack of access, lack of opportunities. I think that that has lingered in a good way. Even around medical stuff too. I was just reading that there's a new risk calculator for cardiovascular disease, and it includes social determinants of health, which means if you've had exposure to trauma and poor living conditions, it factors into your risk score, which is, and they took away race, and they added that, which I think is important because there aren't racial differences in cardiovascular stuff. It has all to do with social determinants of health. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because race is a social construct, so it's the social piece of it. Then it is the actual physiology of, say, an African-American person and a Caucasian American, a white American,

42:17 ELLA: Maybe that generational trauma that you don't see, which is in their genes,

42:23 MAGGIE: Right? So it doesn't have to do with that they wear black or from Africa or from somewhere. It has to do with their living environment. So anyway, I'm seeing that in medicine, which is good. It's a good movement. Yeah.

42:41 ELLA: What do you think is the future for Black Lives Matter? The movement specifically?

42:48 MAGGIE: I have no idea. I really haven't ever thought about the movement. I mean, I haven't recently thought about the movement. Yeah,

42:54 ELLA: Yeah.

42:55 MAGGIE: I kind of think of it as it's done.

42:57 ELLA: Okay. Yeah. Honestly, I mean, that's helpful. I think so.

43:03 MAGGIE: Is there future? No, except for people's, what I think of the movement now are people's posters in their yards that have become dilapidated and moved to the bushes, and so develop in the yard.

43:16 ELLA: Yeah. Yeah. I think when I think of the Black Lives Matter movement, a lot of it's arm chair protesting what people could do from their couches during Covid. And now that they've gone, they've lived normal lives, their posters have gone back into the bushes, and it's not, it's harder to identify with the movement because it's such a, well, I mean, for some people it's jarring political move. I don't know.

43:45 MAGGIE: Well, and it's not as galvanizing right now. It's not like you're really having to fight against something. I feel like, whereas when George Floyd died, it was like, oh my gosh, how is this acceptable in this year? I mean, it was basically like a lynching, and nobody had seen that widely. It had been going on, but seeing it on a video was really galvanizing made. You really want to go get it, go get somebody. Yeah,

44:21 ELLA: I think so too. Okay. Thank you for talking with me, Maggie.

44:27 MAGGIE: You're welcome. Have a

44:28 ELLA: Great day.

44:28 MAGGIE: You too.